Member of
Rank
Plays
Enee
Level 85 Paladin, Protection.
Human. Alliance.
Shadowmoon (PvP) - NorthAmerica
|
|
Ok, I've decided to bite the bullet. For the sake of clarity and, to use a buzz word in the admin business, transparence, I want to open up the discussion on loot distribution. I would like to concentrate on ulduar gear, but it can, and should, encompass meta issues about distribution overall. But first some ground rules:
1) Stay polite but be direct. Despite a background in academics, I have little to no patience for artsy fartsy flights of fancy or rhetorical double talk.
2) Don't ask or beg for a specific item. Present your point about why you think your CLASS should get either priority or simply a chance to roll on any given item or item class, e.g. mail melee dps, or plate tanking. Leave the groveling and butt kissing of officers for gchat and in game bribe mails. (That's Enee with 3 E)
3) Be prepared to defend your opinion and back it up with some solid numbers or facts. If you've heard Manaburn's explanations on how a class profits from an item or stat, you know he backs everything up with numbers. You can not agree with it, fine that's what this discussion is for, but please be ready to counter anything here with something a little more researched than "that's just stupid".
What I want to get from this post is a)how others see gear distribution, item wise and how we can simplify and make it better plus b) offer a venue of discussion when someone disagrees with an in game decision about loot.
Finally, I'm curious to find out what everyone's wish list for ulduar looks like. See what items will be hot and how useful 10 man ulduar will be. If you have no clue and are curious, you can check out wowhead's page of new 3.1 items or worldofraids.com's information guide on the ulduar. If you are like me and like to be surprised by the gear, just don't check it out before launch. So post your wish lists, maybe in a different topic and we'll see how we can make your wishes come true. No promises though ;-)
** Post edited by Enee on 4/2/2009.
|
|
|
|
Member of
Rank
Plays
Enee
Level 85 Paladin, Protection.
Human. Alliance.
Shadowmoon (PvP) - NorthAmerica
|
|
Here's a reference guide for item levels. Keep in mind that an item level only offers a general idea of an item's power. Itemization, i.e. what stats are on any given piece of gear and how much, can make lower level items more interesting than higher ones. This is why Enee is using a level 200 weapon from 10 man naxx even though there are 2 higher level tanking weapons in naxx 25 which have dropped for us several times.
Most crafted epics : 200
Naxx 10, Sarth 10 : 200
Naxx KT 10, Sarth 2d 10, EoE 10 : 213
Naxx 25, Sarth 25 : 213
Naxx KT 25, Sarth 2d 25, EoE 25 : 226
Ulduar 10 : 219
Ulduar 10 hard mode : 226
Ulduar 25 : 226
Ulduar 25 end bosses,Hard mode : 232
Ulduar 25 end bosses on hard mode : 237 e.g. Voldrethar
About hard mode, Sarth 1-3 drakes is an example. In this case, 2 drakes gives you the higher level item, 3 drakes is just icing with the vanity mount. In ulduar, 10/14 bosses are confirmed to have hard modes, with different levels of difficulty within each encounter. Finally, there's an optional boss which is described as a pure hard mode boss. In other words, the encounter is designed to be on par with a hard mode encounter for the other bosses. Nothing about this encounter is known for now and Blizzard has no intention of testing it on the ptr before launch.
|
|
|
|
 | brahmabull754
Arnasian
|
< CoL >
|
Member of
Rank
Plays
Arnasian
Level 80 Rogue, Combat.
Night Elf. Alliance.
Shadowmoon (PvP) - NorthAmerica
|
|
As far as items themselves go, it's pretty clear which classes they are for and who gets priority on them. There are definitely overlaps, and depending on talent specs, stats, and one's other gear, two (or more) classes may need the same item equally.
There is a website which my old guild used to use all the time during TBC and pre-BC, Kaliban's Class Loot Lists. It has been around a long time and is very reputable and accurate. I absolutely recommend using this for any and all questions on class loot. There is also a link within the website that brings you to detailed explanations of the item and stat weighing for each class.
Edit: As I continue to formulate thoughts about loot distribution, I feel there should be a soft cap to how many pieces of loot someone should be able to get in a run. It doesn't help the guild to have one person getting 6 pieces of loot by random chance, while two less geared members of his same class / role get nothing.
** Post edited by Arnasian on 4/2/2009.
|
|
|
|
Member of
Rank
Plays
Esurion
Level 80 Mage, Frost.
Human. Alliance.
Shadowmoon (PvP) - NorthAmerica
|
|
Well now seems like a good time to bring up my addon. As far as a soft cap that would probably help because it starts by rolling out of 200 and each time you receive loot it decrements the amount you roll out of by 10. So if you win the first roll then your next roll would be out of 190. This way it is still possible to win a large amount of items but the likelihood of winning drops with each successive win.
|
|
|
|
| brahmabull754
Arnasian
|
< CoL >
|
Member of
Rank
Plays
Arnasian
Level 80 Rogue, Combat.
Night Elf. Alliance.
Shadowmoon (PvP) - NorthAmerica
|
|
That's a good idea in theory, but I think the number range is still too great. I'd maybe start at 100 and reduce by 15 or 20 each time. That would make it all but impossible to win 4 or 5 things in a run, which is exactly what needs to be the case, IMHO.
Edit: It would also force people to be more selective about what they roll on, further increasing the even spread of gear, which is essential for a 'progression' guild.
** Post edited by Arnasian on 4/2/2009.
|
|
|
|
Member of
Rank
Plays
Manaburn
Level 81 Mage, Frost.
Human. Alliance.
Shadowmoon (PvP) - NorthAmerica
|
|
Ill note that esurions addon is not a per run addon, those numbers persist Permanently. With say 25 added to the roll every attended and on time raid, with 10 points taken off per hour of the raid missed (say you were a replacement you would only get 5 points if it was within the third hour of raiding).
** Post edited by Enee on 4/3/2009.
** Post edited by Enee on 4/3/2009.
|
|
|
|
| brahmabull754
Arnasian
|
< CoL >
|
Member of
Rank
Plays
Arnasian
Level 80 Rogue, Combat.
Night Elf. Alliance.
Shadowmoon (PvP) - NorthAmerica
|
|
That makes more sense then. I still think that having it start at 100 would be better than 200 to limit the potential of mass front-end acquisition of gear by one player. This way gear is guaranteed to be spread out amongst many players early on.
I don't think I like an hourly point gain either, maybe 5 points per boss instead, plus points for showing up on time and staying the whole time.
** Post edited by Arnasian on 4/2/2009.
|
|
|
|
Member of
Rank
Plays
Suci
Level 80 Druid, Balance.
Night Elf. Alliance.
Shadowmoon (PvP) - NorthAmerica
|
|
Point system is fine. But I do think (from raiding with this guild in the past 3 weeks) that everybody know what they wanted from which boss. And people are nice enough to pass on loots if they've already got something from the previous boss. If somebody got too greedy or not sure about which item is better for them, and it happens to the best of us, RL can and should interfere and give the loot to the right raider.
Since Ulduar will be a progression once more. The importance of gearing up everybody simultaneously need to be said in the beginning of each raid night. Gearing up a selective few has never been good policy for any guild.
To sum up what I’ve seen so far in this guild, courtesy is your loot distribution system and it works. Why fix something that’s not broken.
|
|
|
|
Member of
Rank
Plays
Enee
Level 85 Paladin, Protection.
Human. Alliance.
Shadowmoon (PvP) - NorthAmerica
|
|
Ok a few things. First off, although we are lucky to have cool people in the guild who will pass on loot if someone else needs it more, there are a few items that are just too hot to pass up. That is why I'd like to see a wish list, so we can anticipate what people are going to be rolling on most.
Second, I looked at the site Arnasian recommended and though overall it's pretty good, there are 2 things that prevent us from using it more than just a reference guide. A) While some items are easy to distribute, like tank gear and anything cloth with spell hit on it, a problem arises on those which, as Arnasian puts it, overlap. Does mp5 contribute more to healers than dps? What about crit for priests? Which healer gets the most from haste, etc. And b) there are some instances where the guide doesn't work very well. An example I spotted is Journey's end. It lists it as being for druids ONLY, even though maxdps says it's best in slot for hunters.
These are the issues I'd like to see discussed in this thread.
|
|
|
|
Member of
Rank
Plays
Suci
Level 80 Druid, Balance.
Night Elf. Alliance.
Shadowmoon (PvP) - NorthAmerica
|
|
I guess I see how in a situation where the item would cross over with different set of raiders in each roll and the guy always roll the highest number. For a good example would be my new warlock  She benefits from spirit (=SP) due to the fel armor buff. I have been asked why I rolled on a spirit loot and have to explain. But let’s say the next boss drop a loot with +hit in it. I will be rolling against a different set of people. The question is can I roll or not? My opinion would be I shouldn’t.
I think if you want to implement a system an easier loot system would be to limit the number of items you get from each run. With 14 boss dropping 4 each, we’ll have 56 loots. That’s a little more than 2 per person for a 25man raid. Limit your loot cap to 2 per person in each run. There will be left over loot and those can be rolled on afterwards. Kind of like the point system but less complicated. This will be even easier as the group geared up from each run.
As far as itemization change in 3.1, for me it’s not clear yet how 3.1 will change itemization. I didn’t go to the PTR and try to test things out but as far as druids go, a couple of things will change the way we view our gear from the patch notes:
Tree won’t get affected by the spirit nerf since they constantly cast during each fight. We’ll probably need time to drink in between bosses fight but that’s about it. The nerf is only limited to the fsr healers. I really can’t see how druid tree itemization would change with the new patch. They still need spirit but then again we’re the only healers rolling on a healing leather piece. I can see how mp5 will be more attractive to frs healers now that spirit is going to get a big nerf bat.
The balance tree will not be changed by much. I don’t see any itemization change for it.
Bear will be the one that you’ll see rolling on different gear stats. They will likely to roll on gear that can contribute to crits since it’ll proc their new savage defense ability. So rogues and cat leather pieces will be more attractive to them. Some of the accessories (neck, ring, etc.) will share with your other melee dps loot also. So don’t freak out if the tank starts to roll on some of the dps item with crit. Getting as close as possible to haste cap number is also starting to look good for bears. The new savage defense will reduce damage by 25%. It’s impossible to proc this each time you hit. But they’re going to aim for it since their armor and health is getting a kick in the nut.
Not sure about cat… don’t play much cat other than I do daily with it.
I’ve only played my lock a week but from looking at the ptr notes I also do not see much change in their itemization.
|
|
|
|
Member of
Rank
Plays
Enee
Level 85 Paladin, Protection.
Human. Alliance.
Shadowmoon (PvP) - NorthAmerica
|
|
Nice post Suci, I liked it. Here's my reply :
About the loot cap per run, we've considered it before. The trouble there is keeping track of who gets how many over several days, as we can expect we won't be clearing it in one night at first. I need to confirm how many items drop per boss as well.
Your breakdown of druid specs is solid, but there are two points I'd like to discuss. One is your assertion "we’re the only healers rolling on a healing leather piece". While true, you are not the only class who will roll on spellpower leather items. Gone are the days where +healing clearly identified healer gear vs dps. Here's an example Malleable Steelweave Mantle and Shoulderpads of Dormant Energies. Which one is balance, which one is resto? I'm thinking both and both should roll on it, but others may disagree. If so, please tell me why.
The other point I wanted to bring up is slightly oblique. About tank loot, I'll be distributing it myself as I have been doing so far. For those who wonder why, the reason is simple. Tank gear is easy to distribute, mostly, and I favour one tank class on certain items over another in many cases. This wouldn't work for other class types because so many more people are involved, whereas there are only 2 at most 3 tanks per raid, even 25 mans and there is a lot more overlap on their gear anyway. Another criteria I use is attendance. Because tanks require special attention gear wise, let's say it, I'd rather gear up the ones who show up most often. Again this isn't easy to do for other class types because of the numbers involved. Remembering which dps showed up last time is not a simple matter. If a tank (read main spec tank) would like to argue this system, please do so here or with in game tells and mails.
** Post edited by Enee on 4/3/2009.
|
|
|
|
Member of
Rank
Plays
Suci
Level 80 Druid, Balance.
Night Elf. Alliance.
Shadowmoon (PvP) - NorthAmerica
|
|
If you guys have discussed about loot cap before then I won't discuss it anymore. I'm sure it's not here for a good reason.
For me personally, the more pressing question would be the dual spec twist in the loot distribution. Since most hybrid class will have 2 main spec. And most likely, since it will be progression, the 2 spec will not be the same role. There's much to sort out in this topic.
As for the gear selection, Malleable for tree and Dormant for balance. Tree healing puts less emphasize on crit. More of a stream of HoT ticks. Tree also have a talent that increases our crit chance. Balance eclipse spec-ed druid need crit more to proc their earth and moon buffs. Earth and moon is their dps bread and butter.
As for bear gear, it will not share with the rest 3 tanks loot. Imo, bear has always been the stepchild within the tanking itemization.
First of all its leather. Second of all we don't use parry, block, shield. A perfect description on bears would be a cracked up cat druid or rogues on steroids. 
Yes its slow here at work...  more time to browse.
|
|
|
|
Member of
Rank
Plays
Enee
Level 85 Paladin, Protection.
Human. Alliance.
Shadowmoon (PvP) - NorthAmerica
|
|
As for the gear selection, Malleable for tree and Dormant for balance. Tree healing puts less emphasize on crit. More of a stream of HoT ticks. Tree also have a talent that increases our crit chance. Balance eclipse spec-ed druid need crit more to proc their earth and moon buffs. Earth and moon is their dps bread and butter.
This is a perfect example of the kind of argumentation I want to see. This is great. Doesn't mean we'll agree with it, but at least there's a reasoning behind it beyond I like crit or I haven't gotten any gear in X amount of time (which is NEVER a valid reason to receive loot, btw).
Now to counter, if we flip the debate around, what about haste? Does haste favour resto or balance more? I've heard it argued a few times in guild, both sides of the question, mostly relating to resto. Any thoughts?
|
|
|
|
Member of
Rank
Plays
Suci
Level 80 Druid, Balance.
Night Elf. Alliance.
Shadowmoon (PvP) - NorthAmerica
|
|
For me, having both set, I pick crit for my boomkin gear. I always thought of tree healing as constant casting thus haste would be the choice.
The standard GCD is 1.5 seconds. With the resto talent gotem, wrath of air totem you'll need 468 haste to get the GCD down to 1sec. This is what I try to aim for. We paired nicely with elem shaman or resto shaman.
But let’s get down to the numbers since I actually have done this… (nerd warning).
For the sake of easier math we’re going to assume some numbers:
Let’s say the for both resto and boom spec is 1.5 gcd and the crit for both spec is 0% and the spell power is the same.
Each cast is instant.
Each heal/damage you deal 100 hp/damage
100 cast is 1.5 seconds gcd = 150 seconds of boss fight
No lag whatsoever… (GL with this)
For boomkin:
1% haste equals to .015 seconds reduction in your spell casting time.
This means that each cast, instead of 1.5 second gcd you will be casting at 1.485 second gcd.
So within the time frame given, I can cast 150/1.485 = 101.01 times.
Each hit gives me 100 damage. So I just did 10,100 damage
1% crit equals to 1 crit per 100 cast.
Eclipse will give you additional 30% crit as you hit that one crit.
This means for 15 seconds. You get 30% additional crit on top of your 1%.
So let’s say it procs midway at the 50th cast.
The next 50 cast, roughly 15 of them will be a crit.
What this means in dps number= (85x100)+(15x200) = 11,500 damage
For tree:
1% haste equals to .015 seconds reduction in your spell casting time.
This means that each cast, instead of 1.5 second gcd you will be casting at 1.485 second gcd.
So within the time frame given, I can cast 150/1.485 = 101.01 times.
Each hit gives me 100 heal. So I just did 10,100 heal
1% crit equals to 1 crit per 100 cast.
What this means in heal number= (99x100)+(1x200) = 10,100 heal
-----------------------------------------------------
Now, I know things are not as simple as shown here. But as you can see, given a one to one comparison, the eclipse proc makes haste a distant second in a boomkin in priority.
|
|
|
|
| brahmabull754
Arnasian
|
< CoL >
|
Member of
Rank
Plays
Arnasian
Level 80 Rogue, Combat.
Night Elf. Alliance.
Shadowmoon (PvP) - NorthAmerica
|
|
I recommend Elitist Jerks to anyone who wants/needs to know more about his class, another class, or anything else.
Those theorycrafters break down and analyze every little detail about the game. The website is an endless wealth of information, and it's one of my main resources when I'm researching a class I need to know more about.
Another thing to think about is that Blizzard intentionally itemized gear so that it would be equal for everyone in the same armor class and role, with very few exceptions. Feral Druids and Rogues use the same gear. Hunters and Shaman use the same gear. Warriors, Paladins, and DKs use the same gear. Mages, Warlocks, and Shadow Priests use the same gear. There are some nuances that may make a certain piece slightly better for one than the other, but not to the degree that someone should be prevented from rolling on it (not talking about weapons at this point.)
I can sit here and say that everyone is responsible for researching his own class and knowing what gear he needs, but there needs to be someone who knows what everyone needs in case a raider hasn't done his homework.
|
|
|
|